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The C Major Scale and D Dorian Mode

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Defualt User ImageSnowRose
12:34 am Friday
January 13, 2006
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I have a few questions:

1) The C Major Scale and D Dorian Mode use the same notes? Y/N

2) Is the first note of the D Dorian Mode, Dm (Dminor) or Dmaj (Dmajor)?

Thanks!
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
12:35 am Friday
January 13, 2006
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Oh yeah, I forgot to add, does the CHORD D or Dmaj actually fit in the C major scale or ONLY the Dm?
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
1:22 am Friday
January 13, 2006
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Quote From SnowRose:

1) The C Major Scale and D Dorian Mode use the same notes? Y/N


Y

Quote From SnowRose:
Is the first note of the D Dorian Mode, Dm (Dminor) or Dmaj (Dmajor)?


How you find out is if you harmonize C major in triads (so stack each note in diatonic 3rds), you will get:

C maj
D min
E min
F maj
G maj
A min
B dim

Since D dorian is the 2nd mode, you will see that it's a minor chord.

Quote From SnowRose:
Oh yeah, I forgot to add, does the CHORD D or Dmaj actually fit in the C major scale or ONLY the Dm?


D major contains the notes D F# G. That F# does not naturally occur anywhere in the C major scale. C Lydian (out of Gmaj) gets you in the ballpark with the F# though. That's basically C major with the #4 (F#).

Hope that helps!

Dave
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
4:44 pm Friday
January 13, 2006
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Thanks!

However, if C Major scale and D Dorian mode are essentially using the same notes, what is the point of having both? Basically, what does changing the position of the roots actually do?
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
5:19 pm Friday
January 13, 2006
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Say for example I play C, Dm, Em (C major scale) in that order. Would playing Dm, Em, F = the D Dorian. I don't really understand the purpose of having Dorians and Lydians when you're essentially playing the same notes, but in different order.

What is so significant about have more modes specifically?

Sorry, sounds, kind of confusing, but much clarification is appreciated. =)
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
8:23 pm Friday
January 13, 2006
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They just sound different, different mood and tone.

Instead of just using any note from the scale, you'd have more variety to improvise or create solos with modes.

You can use Dmaj in a C key song, its just how you use it to create different textures and moods. Don't let the key thing limit you, its just a guide to what sounds good, but not what can or cannot be done.
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
8:39 pm Friday
January 13, 2006
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Quote From Loyct:
They just sound different, different mood and tone.

Instead of just using any note from the scale, you'd have more variety to improvise or create solos with modes.

You can use Dmaj in a C key song, its just how you use it to create different textures and moods. Don't let the key thing limit you, its just a guide to what sounds good, but not what can or cannot be done.


So if the 3rd degree in the C Ionian scale is Em, is the 3rd degree in D Dorian Fm or F and why?
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
9:54 pm Friday
January 13, 2006
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Quote From SnowRose:
So if the 3rd degree in the C Ionian scale is Em, is the 3rd degree in D Dorian Fm or F and why?


The 3rd degree in C major is "E", the 3rd chord in a harmonized C major scale is E minor. The 3rd chord in a harmonized D dorian scale is F maj (because as you'll recall, D dorian has the same notes/chords as C major/ionian).

Like Loyct said, it's about different sounds/moods/tonalities. And there's no real "why" to it all, it's just how a major scale is stacked. A harmonic minor scale has its modes too, as does the melodic minor, as do the bebop scales, or ethiopian scales, and even pentatonics can have modes. It's just a way of looking at the scale if it was started on a note other than its root.

A minor scale with a b5 like locrian, has a distinctly different sound than one with a natural 5th (like dorian, phrygian or aeolian) and phrygian has a b9 (lowered 2nd) which is pretty different from the other minor scales that have natural 2nds. Dorian's different b/c it has a natural 6th, etc. Once you start to hear these differences, you'll be able to make better choices about what type of sound you want to play when confronted with a simple chord. The best bet is to think less about them and to just practice playing them and listening to how they sound more. It's always best to internalize this stuff since the analysis of "modes" came after music was created in the first place.

Good luck!
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
10:27 pm Friday
January 13, 2006
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Quote From dkaplowitz"][quote:7516d2914c="SnowRose:
So if the 3rd degree in the C Ionian scale is Em, is the 3rd degree in D Dorian Fm or F and why?


The 3rd degree in C major is "E", the 3rd chord in a harmonized C major scale is E minor. The 3rd chord in a harmonized D dorian scale is F maj (because as you'll recall, D dorian has the same notes/chords as C major/ionian).

Like Loyct said, it's about different sounds/moods/tonalities. And there's no real "why" to it all, it's just how a major scale is stacked. A harmonic minor scale has its modes too, as does the melodic minor, as do the bebop scales, or ethiopian scales, and even pentatonics can have modes. It's just a way of looking at the scale if it was started on a note other than its root.

A minor scale with a b5 like locrian, has a distinctly different sound than one with a natural 5th (like dorian, phrygian or aeolian) and phrygian has a b9 (lowered 2nd) which is pretty different from the other minor scales that have natural 2nds. Dorian's different b/c it has a natural 6th, etc. Once you start to hear these differences, you'll be able to make better choices about what type of sound you want to play when confronted with a simple chord. The best bet is to think less about them and to just practice playing them and listening to how they sound more. It's always best to internalize this stuff since the analysis of "modes" came after music was created in the first place.

Good luck!

So the 3rd degree in the D Dorian is F and the chord is Fmaj?
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
10:03 am Saturday
January 14, 2006
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Quote From SnowRose:

So the 3rd degree in the D Dorian is F and the chord is Fmaj?

bingo!
User ImageT.A.Z
12:49 pm Saturday
January 14, 2006
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Personally i see all these modes and such as being explanations to the people that understand them.

I understand most modes and how they creat the moods and such, however i never once have though "oh it would sound relaly good if i played a D dorian mode over this a minor chord".

Its just for when you want to look back at it you can make some sense of it.
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
12:50 pm Saturday
January 14, 2006
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Alright, thanks a lot guys.

Itr really helped!
User ImageBillyJack
1:34 pm Saturday
January 14, 2006
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Quote From dkaplowitz"][quote:63e73d0159="SnowRose:

So the 3rd degree in the D Dorian is F and the chord is Fmaj?

bingo!By George I think they got it! Great explanations dk!
Now their next question will be.... How can you memorize all of that for every key?
Hope it's OK for me to field this one.

Hey Snow,
Remember the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1 we talk about earlier? We agreed that this is the Major Scale regardless of what key you're rooting from right? If that is the case then wouldn't it stand to reason that from 2~2 would be the Dorian Mode of the Major Scale? When people say Modes, 90% of the time they are referring to "The Modes of the Major Scale". We just say "Modes" because of our primary use of the term. Like dk said, we were playing music long before Modal patterns were realized and mapped as a tool for understanding and teaching a method for aquiring different feels to our music. So let's keep it what it is without reading into or complicating it.

Modes of the Major Scale are simply extensions of the Major Scale to give us different starting points to create a specific feel for a composition rather it be as a Rooting position or a harmonizing position. Nothing more, Nothing less. PERIOD!

How do you learn it?

My way of teaching would be to:
1 = learn where all the notes are located on your guitar neck.
This way you can express to others what your root is or where to start if someone say play in "A" for example. This is something you really need to know well enough to not have to think about it too much and really, if you're gonna play, you should know your instrument. COMMON SENSE Right? (See Learning Center for examples)

2 = Learn block and lateral patterns for practicing the Major Scale.
This just means look at the ways you can finger 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1. Do this till you KNOW it backwards and forwards from random starting points. Remeber in the CHROMATIC Scale that every note is a Semitone apart? Well guess what every fret on the same string is. Keep in mind, most notes on a guitar can be found in several locations so you can apply the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1 to both lateral and vertical movements and then try playing from 2~2 3~3 and so forth. These are your Modes but, Modes are just extensions of the Major scale. So know the 2 is the Dorian Mode but it is still just starting from the 2 of the Major scale. (See Learning Center for examples of Major scale patterns)

3 = Learn the location of all the intervals in relationship to the root.
Now you know that 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1 are the intervals of the Major Scale but we do not just disreguard the other notes in the Chromatic Scale. We got the 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1 because:
1 is the root
2 is a Major 2nd
3 is a Major 3rd
4 is a Perfect 4th
5 is a Perfect 5th
6 is a Major 6th
7 is a Major 7th
1 is an Octive
Now that is only 8 of the 13 notes we can play so, what about the other 5?
Remeber we're learning the "Modes of the Major Scale" We haven't looked at minors, diminished, dominates or augments. Now they too have unique sounds but, they too are derivatives of the Major and here's how.
Remember the w,w,s,w,w,w,s we used to map the Major? What happened to the notes we skipped for the wholetones? Well here they are.

1 is the root
b2 is a minor 2nd
2 is a Major 2nd
b3 is a minor 3rd
3 is a Major 3rd (didn't skip between 3 & 4)
4 is a Perfect 4th
b5 is a diminished 5th (because it's a perfect harmonic, it's not a minor just diminished)
5 is a Perfect 5th
b6 is a minor 6th
6 is a Major 6th
b7 is a minor 7th
7 is a Major 7th (didn't skip between 7 & 1)
1 is an Octive

Now we have all 13 notes present and accounted for and also a means to build chords other than major triads. 1,3,5 is the basic major traid. Flatten the 3 and it's a minor. Now look at the list of 13 intervals and what does it say beside the b3? Ahh b3 is a minor so we have a basic minor traid.

Be careful here because this information opens the door to some really advanced Music Theory. As I told you before don't over think. As long winded as this has been, all I've done is said how to practice 3 simple things.

Practice
1 Knowing the Neck
2 Major scale
3 Intervals

1st} Knowing the neck = no short cuts here really, you have to know your instrument. (practice time = 10 minutes when you pick up the guitar)

2nd} Major Scale = Start with basic fingerings of 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 then advance to different patterns and locations. Once you know the scale in random patterns, moved to playing from different starting position 2~2 3~3 ect. Realize that the 2 is Dorian 3 is Phyrigian and so on but, still just extentions of the Major scale. (practice time = 10 minutes when you pick up the guitar)

3rd} Intervals = Where are they in relationship to the root. (With the exception of the open "B" string cause it's a half step flat of the top 4 strings and you have to shift) 5 is above the 1, 4 is below the 1, 3 is a fret behind the 4... get my point? These intervals have location relationships to each other that are constant and once you know them, you don't have to think about it. Start with the Major inverals and as with everything else we've shown you, the other intervals can be derived from the Majors. (minor 3rd is a flattened 3 for example)(practice time = 10 minutes when you pick up the guitar)

That's only 30 minutes of practice time. Any other time you care to commit to practice, learn songs, learn to read sheet music, just whatever you feel like practicing. I've just given you 30 minutes of basic building blocks that will assist you in the long run. It takes time to develope this craft but, it's worth every second of wood shedding we do to develope our talent so don't overwhelm yourself by trying to learn too much too quick.

Good luck!
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
7:08 pm Saturday
January 14, 2006
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Great post, BillyJack!
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
11:55 pm Saturday
January 14, 2006
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Thanks for further elaborating on all this BillyJack.

Just to make sure, to recap what you said, so that I know I am on the right page. Once you flatten the 3rd (b3) in a major scale, you automatically move away from a Major scale to a Minor scale.

My follow-up question is if the C Major scale's 3rd degree is an E and the chord is Em, does that mean a C Minor scale's 3rd degree a D#? If so, what is the specific D# chord? Going back to the C major, the 3rd chord is Em, so as for C minor it would be D#_?
User ImageBillyJack
8:16 am Sunday
January 15, 2006
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Quote From SnowRose:
Thanks for further elaborating on all this BillyJack.

Just to make sure, to recap what you said, so that I know I am on the right page. Once you flatten the 3rd (b3) in a major scale, you automatically move away from a Major scale to a Minor scale.

My follow-up question is if the C Major scale's 3rd degree is an E and the chord is Em, does that mean a C Minor scale's 3rd degree a D#? If so, what is the specific D# chord? Going back to the C major, the 3rd chord is Em, so as for C minor it would be D#_?
Yes in fact it does but, as dk said ALL scales can be broken down into modes. Now in the case of Cm (actually Cm7) scale you have C,D,Eb(your D#),F,G,A,Bb,C so the 3rd chord would be Eb,G,Bb (which is a 1,3,5 of Eb).

Now let me ask you a question. Is this Cm7 Scale (C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb,C) not just the Dorain (2) Mode of Bb Major (Bb,C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb)? Don't let #s and Flats fool you. They are notes as well and if you play w,w,s,w,w,w,s it's a Major Scale no matter were you start. Try your best to always get back to the Major because lesson #1 KNOW THE MAJOR SCALE! Practice it! Move it! Extend it! KNOW IT!

Look at this:
Modes of the MAJOR SCALE!
1st Mode - Ionian = The Major Scale
2nd Mode - Dorian = Minor Dom7 Scale (b3, b7)
3rd Mode - Phrygian = Natural Minor Scale(all your minors b2, b3, b6, b7)
4th Mode - Lydian = Major Aug4 Scale (Major scale with a #4)
5th Mode - Mixolydian = Major Dom7 Scale (Major scale with a flat or Dominate 7)
6th Mode - Aeolian = Relative Minor Scale(b3, b6, b7) (This is called the Relative Minor because it has the same related Key signature as our Major root)
7th Mode - Locrian = Minor Dom7 Diminished (b2, b3, b5, b6, b7)

That's 3 Majors and 4 Minor scales you'll know just learning the Major scale like I showed you. You can start from any of them and that starting point becomes your root scale. Where you start does not change their order or how they relate to each other. So if you start from the 2 Dorian your 3rd would be.........? (4 Lydian - Your root plus 2 intervals = 3)

Here's a suggestion I've made to others that want to learn. When you find or figure out something new, always see how it relates to the Major scale. If you can not make a connection then, you're probly trying to learn too much too quickly. If you can see it get back to the Major but feel somethings missing, there's when you ask your questions. So far you're doing great! The D#(although it should have been Eb) in the Cm question was good and easy to bring you back to the Bb Major to show you how it fits.

In case you're wondering about the D# vs Eb... In Cm7 the notes are C,D,Ed,F,G,A,Bb,C to use D#, although it's the same note as Eb, you would have 2 D's. We don't do that until we start motifing these 7 to create new scales.
Defualt User ImageSnowRose
11:07 am Sunday
January 15, 2006
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Alright, sounds good!

Now I got to look over the lessons just to be sure.

Thanks for the help guys! This site is awesome.
Defualt User Imageerik
9:12 pm Thursday
March 30, 2006
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I realize this topic is a couple months old but I am new to the site and just recently read this topic...I was wondering if you could elaborate or explain this this quote:

Quote From BillyJack:

3rd} Intervals = Where are they in relationship to the root. (With the exception of the open "B" string cause it's a half step flat of the top 4 strings and you have to shift) 5 is above the 1, 4 is below the 1, 3 is a fret behind the 4... get my point? These intervals have location relationships to each other that are constant and once you know them, you don't have to think about it. Start with the Major inverals and as with everything else we've shown you, the other intervals can be derived from the Majors. (minor 3rd is a flattened 3 for example)(practice time = 10 minutes when you pick up the guitar)


I just dont understand what was meant by the 5 is above the 1 and 4 below the 1 and etc.
User ImageBillyJack
7:01 am Friday
March 31, 2006
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Hi Erik, welcome to GKN forums. I'd be glad to elaborate.

In the Major scale there are 8 tone values. You may have sang them before in school as:

Do, Ra, Me, Fa, So, La, Ti, Do

In C Major, the notes that create these tone values are:

C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

In A Major they are

A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A

If you listen to a scale in different KEYS, alike scales flow the same reguardless of key. The reason for this is that the tone values in each scale type are consistant. The numbers are based on the Major because all other scales can be derived from it. Since the intervals are consistant, you can number their position in the scale: (commonly know as, Intervals)

Do=1, Ra=2, Me=3, Fa=4, So=5, La=6, Ti=7, Do=8

Now if you hit an "A" note on the guitar. Directly below it is a "D" which is the 4th of "A"
A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#, A

If you hit a "C" note, directly below it is an "F" note which is the 4th of "C"
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C

This applies to all the intervals. (the "B" string is one fret flat of the rest so in order for the pattern to work, going from "G" string to "B" you shift sharp one fret and from "B" string to "G" you flaten one fret)

Hope this cleared it up for you.
User ImageBillyJack
7:48 am Friday
March 31, 2006
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Hey erik, Here's you a visual. These are the intervals out of "A" & "C" (P=perfect, M=Major, m=minor)
The red dot is your "1" and the other Majors are highlighted in yellow.


Defualt User Imageerik
4:35 pm Friday
March 31, 2006
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Thanks BillyJack, I think I understand it now...i will have to read over it again when I have some free time to make sure i fully understand it.

-Erik
User Imagebeerzerker
5:46 pm Thursday
April 13, 2006
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You should look at the modes in parallel.
Look at them all with a D root and then you will
see how they are all unique and have their own set of notes
and steps(or intervals).That'll really show you how D Dorian
is unique and has it's own unique sound,etc.

Looking at the modes in parallel in E is a really cool
way to practice them because you can hit the low E
string and while that is ringing out you can then improvise
over that on the higher 5 strings in some mode with an "E Root",
and hear how that mode sounds against it's root note,E.
--If the low E string (root note) stops ringing you can strike it again
to keep it going.Then once you are satisfied that you are hearing
that mode then you can switch to a different mode in E.

Incase that was confusing then do this:Strike your low E string,
then noodle in E Lydian above that on any of the five higher strings
so that the Low E string you just struck continues ringing.Now strike
the low E again but this time noodle in E Phrygian.The different sound
of E Lydian and E Phrygian should be immediately apparent to you.


The other thing is to know what major scale a mode comes from or
what major scale contains the same notes.So you should know that D
Dorian uses the same notes as the C Major Scale.It just makes those
notes act like some sort of D minor scale/mode instead of C Major.
E Dorian uses the same notes as the D Major Scale,etc.

So you have to understand modes in parallel to understand how say
each mode in E differs from a different mode in E.

And you have to know what Major Scale's notes a mode is using.
The circle of fifths diagram tells you all of the Major Keys and how
many sharps or flats a given MAJOR SCALE has.So for example
the key of C Major has zero sharps or flats and is referring to
the C Major Scale.--Any mode that uses the C Major Scale's notes
is also going to have zero flats or sharps,etc.

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