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What constitutes a good "chorder"

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Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
11:46 pm Tuesday
January 31, 2006
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What constitutes a good 'chorder'

I've asked many questions about chords, but i don't know where i'm heading.
As the new year resolution, i'm determined to improve my guitar playing by alot.

Firstly, chords.

I'm compiling a list of "topics" under the catergory "Chords". So far i have
-Memorizing (knowing chords practically, being able to finger, strum, apreggiate etc)
-Construction (learning chord formulas and applying them)
-Progressions (Whatever this is, to me, its just a group of chords in a key. That's a riff isnt it?)
-Theory (unsure what goes under here)

I need help in organizing this list, so that i can carry out my practices more efficiently.

Thanks.
User ImageBillyJack
9:10 am Wednesday
February 1, 2006
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I have a habit of over thinking when it comes to study methods so I'm not gonna be the one to help you with organizing a study regiment. The reason I'm replying to your post is to direct you toward a program called ChordWizard.

http://www.chordwizard.com/products.asp

If you want to know chords, this program is awesome! It not only tells you the chords and their spelling, it tells you what other chord are built from the intervals you are playing.
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
2:16 am Tuesday
February 7, 2006
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not so much as organizing study, but just listing what comes under chords.

Eg, someone says "How do we play the guitar?"

-Learn chords
-Learn scales
-Learn fav songs
-Learn this and that technique
-Know the fretboard.

etc\

I have memorizing, chord construction, progressions, theory and triads..but i'm not sure what is what, and if i'm missing out anything about chords.
User ImageBillyJack
8:34 am Tuesday
February 7, 2006
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Oh ok, you're outlining.

CHORDS:
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------[/color:fe19b1f23f]1) Know the fretboard (I know this was 1 of your topics but, it's vital in chord construction)
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]a) Note identification
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]b) Interval spacing
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------[/color:fe19b1f23f]2) Chord Construction
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]a) What constitutes a chord
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]b) Basic Triad formulas
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]c) Chord extensions
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]d) Chord inversions
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]e) Relative chords
[color=cyan:fe19b1f23f]--------------[/color:fe19b1f23f]f) Chord substitutions

I don't really remember who to give credit to on this but, here's a list that was posted a week or so ago that you might find to be a handy reference:

MAJOR   =   1,3,5   
MINOR   =   1,b3,5   
SUSPENDED 2nd   =   1,2,5   
SUSPENDED 4th   =   1,4,5   
MAJOR FLAT 5   =   1,3,b5   
AUGMENTED   =   1,3,#5   
DIMINISHED   =   1,b3,b5   
MAJOR add 9   =   1,3,5,9   
MINOR add 9   =   1,b3,5,9   
6th   =   1,3,5,6   
MINOR 6th   =   1,b3,5,6   
MAJOR 7th   =   1,3,5,7   
DOMINANT 7th   =   1,3,5,b7   
MINOR 7th   =   1,b3,5,b7   
MINOR MAJOR 7th   =   1,b3,5,7   
MINOR 7th FLAT 5   =   1,b3,b5,b7   
DIMINISHED 7th   =   1,b3,b5,bb7    
7th SUSPENDED   =   1,4,5,b7   
7th SHARP   =   1,3,#5,b7   
7th FLAT 5   =   1,3,b5,b7   
6th add 9   =   1,3,5,6,9   
MINOR 6th add 9   =   1,b3,5,6,9   
MAJOR 9th   =   1,3,5,7,9   
9th   =   1,3,5,b7,9   
MINOR 9th   =   1,b3,5,b7,9   
7th SHARP 9   =   1,3,5,b7,#9   
7th FLAT 9   =   1,3,5,b7,b9   
7th SHARP FIVE FLAT 9   =   1,3,#5,b7,b9   
9th SHARP 5   =   1,3,#5,b7,9   
9th FLAT 5   =   1,3,b5,b7,9   
MINOR 9 MAJOR 7   =   1,b3,5,7,9   
11th   =   1,(3),5,b7,9,11   (3 is usually omitted due to clash with 11th)
MINOR 11th   =   1,b3,5,b7,9,11   
MAJOR 7th SHARP 11th   =   1,3,5,7,9,#11   
7th SHARP 11th   =   1,3,5,b7,9,#11   
MAJOR 13th   =   1,3,5,7,9,(11),13    (11 usually omitted due to clash with 13th)
13th   =   1,3,5,b7,9,(11),13   (11 usually omitted due to clash with 13th)
MINOR 13th   =   1,b3,5,b7,9,(11),13   
13th FLAT 9   =   1,3,5,b7,b9,(11),13
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
4:48 pm Tuesday
February 7, 2006
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Not much to add to what's been said, except don't forget to include voice leading in your study of chords. And though it's a jazzier idiom, chord melody can be applied to a lot of different styles. It requires some pretty heady knowledge of chord voicings and the notes the chords are comprised of, not a bad course of study if you want to learn more about chords and how they work.

Counterpoint is another subject that involves harmony too (and is highly applicable to fingerstyle guitar).

Good luck!

P.S. If you are thinking about books for this kinda' stuff, check out Ted Greene's two excellent chord books.
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
10:38 pm Tuesday
February 7, 2006
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Counterpoints are also known as pedal points right?
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
1:33 pm Wednesday
February 8, 2006
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Quote From Loyct:
Counterpoints are also known as pedal points right?


No, counterpoint is actually the playing of two (or more) different, independent lines of music simultaneously. Each one works on its own as a strong melody, but all of them also work together as a strong harmony. It's a pretty awesome musical device that J.S. Bach, among others, was a master of.
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
11:56 pm Wednesday
February 8, 2006
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Wow, that's pretty hard co-ordination.

How is counterpoint taught?
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
7:20 am Thursday
February 9, 2006
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Quote From Loyct:
Wow, that's pretty hard co-ordination.

How is counterpoint taught?


There are some good books, but they're mostly geared towards classical music and are best studied with a piano. It'll help if you know how to read too. Believe it or not I'm actually studying piano (got myself a Yamaha P-120) so I can study stuff like counterpoint, composition and advanced harmony. Anyway, you don't need a piano, but the best books will require you to transpose a lot to guitar. That's not impossible, it's just a lot of work. There might be a lot of classical guitar books that have counterpoint in them. Check google or amazon for some titles.

In the meantime, check out this link:

Counterpoint Explained: Contrapuntal Motion
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
5:02 pm Thursday
February 9, 2006
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Thanks guys.

So basically, chords are broken into 2 topics? Construction and knowing fretboard?

What about memorizing, theory, progressions etC?
Defualt User Imagedkaplowitz
8:01 am Friday
February 10, 2006
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Quote From Loyct:
Thanks guys.

So basically, chords are broken into 2 topics? Construction and knowing fretboard?

What about memorizing, theory, progressions etC?


Hmmm...

knowing how to build them (their scale degrees and the names of their notes)
knowing their inversions
knowing voicings for them (and their inversions)
knowing their function in a progression (key centers)
studying popular progressions
knowing how to play chord progressions that have certain melodies in the top note (chord melody)
knowing voice leading
knowing chords by ear
knowing progressions by ear
advanced harmony, like counterpoint, quartal, quintal, lydian chromatic, polytonality, this weird approach, and the thing Pat Martino did where he thought of _everything_ as some kind of minor, Wink etc. etc.
knowing chord substitutions

All that without talking about rhythm and comping. Very happy

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are an assload of other harmony concepts I left out. Harmony's a lifetime's study. It's just a huge amount of data to understand (if you care to understand it well). Granted, much of the stuff I mentioned is really only something a jazz/fusion improviser would really care about (and maybe a composer), but there's no doubt if you took the time to learn a little bit of all of it well, you'd be a freakin' monster! Just MO though.

Start with Ted Green's books, they're awesome. Then move on the Mick Goodrick's "Mr. Goodchord" voice leading books. That'd be a really good start.

Cheers,

Dave
User ImageBillyJack
9:21 am Friday
February 10, 2006
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Quote From Loyct:
Thanks guys.

So basically, chords are broken into 2 topics? Construction and knowing fretboard?

What about memorizing, theory, progressions etC?
Truth be told, there is no way to issulate any particular aspect of music. It's all inner twined. We don't study "This is Melody""This is Chords" and so on. Knowledge and abilities evolve based on style music and method of learning. The different elements grow together as you progress in your style so, to say "Chords" and give a discriptive is really not going to work as an absolute. You will find points along the way that fill like you know all you need to, let's say about "Chords", then a new approach or technic will open up other aspects of that element and your prioities that relate to them and how they are used change. You can outline different points of interest and as you grow as a musician and add to your list the factors that effect you personally but, to catagorize the fundimentals and say "This is Chords" is just not possible.
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
6:46 am Sunday
February 12, 2006
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Quote From BillyJack:
Oh ok, you're outlining.

CHORDS:
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------[/color:108acc060f]1) Know the fretboard (I know this was 1 of your topics but, it's vital in chord construction)
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]a) Note identification
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]b) Interval spacing
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------[/color:108acc060f]2) Chord Construction
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]a) What constitutes a chord
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]b) Basic Triad formulas
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]c) Chord extensions
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]d) Chord inversions
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]e) Relative chords
[color=cyan:108acc060f]--------------[/color:108acc060f]f) Chord substitutions


a)What constitutes? isn't that triads?
b)Just have to memorize this one right?
c)As in, adding an octave note or, something more than a triad?
d)Just the bass note or?
e)???
f)???
User ImageBillyJack
8:26 am Wednesday
February 15, 2006
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Sorry it took so long to reply! Just bought a new computer and had to get use to the new operating system.

Chord Construction
--------------a) What constitutes a chord
--------------b) Basic Triad formulas
--------------c) Chord extensions
--------------d) Chord inversions
--------------e) Relative chords
--------------f) Chord substitutions

A = Triads, Tetrachords and so on
B = Not only memorizing chord spellings but also what creates the chord.
--------For example: b3 is a minor, b5 is diminished, #4 is augmented and so on...
C = 7s, 9s, 11s, 13s, and how they are effected playing minors and other altered chords.
D = Starting from their root open position, know where the same chord is located in different positions on the neck.
E = Chords that nodally remain true to the parent scale
------- For example: C Major has Dm / Em / F / G / Am / Bdim as well as their extensions.
F = A matter of taste. These chords do not have to remain true to the parent scale but will still enhance a specific feel to your chord progression. It requires some intimate knowledge of the chromatic intervals and their use to be able to improve. Too much to describe on the forum but, do a web search for; "chord substitutions" and I'm sure you'll work it out in time. (Also, I'm still working on this one myself Laughing )
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
12:06 am Thursday
February 16, 2006
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I've done some research as well..

A)What constitutes a chord?
-The 3rd and 7th usually define what kind of chord it is.
So, i'd work on this by learning triads?

Basic Triad formulae
-The three basic triads are Major, Minor and Diminished.
So, i'd work on this by learning the Formula, and then also the name. And, this will be applied by knowing the notes on the fretboard well.


Chord extensions
-The basic chord extensions are 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths.
Still not sure what these do.


Inversions
-An inversion is like chord within chords. Say you have a Aminor7 chord. The first inversion would be A C E G, the second would be C E G A, the third would be E G A C and the fourth would be G A C E.
So, knowing triads would also satisfy this area?

Relative chords
-Relative chord are chords which live within the same scale. For example, you have a Cmajor scale, C D E F G A B. All the chords in that key share the same seven notes.
I already know the relative chords in every key except for sharps and flats. How do i progress?

Chord substitutions
Prefer to settle the above before moving into this
User ImageBillyJack
12:44 pm Thursday
February 16, 2006
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Quote From Loyct:
I've done some research as well..

A)What constitutes a chord?
-The 3rd and 7th usually define what kind of chord it is.
So, i'd work on this by learning triads?
It's a good start. As you learn this will expand.

[quote:95f2765a61]Basic Triad formulae
-The three basic triads are Major, Minor and Diminished.
So, i'd work on this by learning the Formula, and then also the name. And, this will be applied by knowing the notes on the fretboard well.Yes but, the truth is that the notes are primarily for rooting the chord. The interval relationships to the root on the guitar neck will be what creates the individual chords.


[quote:95f2765a61]Chord extensions
-The basic chord extensions are 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths.
Still not sure what these do.Any combination of notes found in a scale can be used to create a chord. There are 7 notes in the Major scale for example. You seem to already know that you use the 1,3,5,7(now this 7 is a Major 7 and not the dominate 7 found next to a note on a music sheet.). What about the 2,4&6? Those are the the 9,11,13s. Look at the pattern here in "C" Major:

Folowing left to right, notice the bold intervals P1,M2,M3,P4,P5,M6,M7,P8,M9,M10,P11,P12,M13,M14,P15
These are called harmonic 3rds and playing these 3rds is what creates a major chord. By spreading them out over 2 octives, you can see where the 2,4&6 (or D,F,A) are even thirds in the 2nd octive and all 7 notes are now accounted for. Those are your Major extentions. As for use, they are used to add tone and tension to a chord.


[quote:95f2765a61]Inversions
-An inversion is like chord within chords. Say you have a Aminor7 chord. The first inversion would be A C E G, the second would be C E G A, the third would be E G A C and the fourth would be G A C E.
So, knowing triads would also satisfy this area?Not really but, knowing chord patterns would. Like your Am7 example, there are four notes, you have six strings. Anywhere you can hit those four notes is an inversion.

[quote:95f2765a61]Relative chords
-Relative chord are chords which live within the same scale. For example, you have a Cmajor scale, C D E F G A B. All the chords in that key share the same seven notes.
I already know the relative chords in every key except for sharps and flats. How do i progress?All I can say on this is, learn intervals. Once you know your intervals, sharps and flats become irrelevant. (PS I doubt you know your relatives. The reason I say this is because in "C"Major they are Dm,Em,F,G,Am & Bm7) Now if you know this and why those are relative, I stand corrected and you are more advanced than I thought.)

[quote:95f2765a61]Chord substitutions
Prefer to settle the above before moving into thisGOOD IDEA! Very happy
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
4:59 pm Thursday
February 16, 2006
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[quote:d1a9025f88]All I can say on this is, learn intervals. Once you know your intervals, sharps and flats become irrelevant. (PS I doubt you know your relatives. The reason I say this is because in "C"Major they are Dm,Em,F,G,Am & Bm7) Now if you know this and why those are relative, I stand corrected and you are more advanced than I thought.)

Alright. In that case, i know half of it.

I know that in G major, its G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, Fdim or something. I do this from A-G key (w/o sharps and flats) by pure memorizing and not by interval theory.

Also, i thought in C major, B was B#dim?



So, the next step is to just learn triads and get comfortable before going on to extensions, inversions and all that?
User ImageBillyJack
6:27 pm Thursday
February 16, 2006
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You're correct in me missing that B, it is Bdim not B# tho. No Sharps or flats in C. I messed up on the retype when I put that picture of the 2 octaves in.

Good catch though! Very happy

In all your Major scale regardless of key,
the root is a Major
2 chord is a minor
3 chord is a minor
4 chord is a Major
5 chord is a Major
6 chord is a minor
7 chord is diminished

and your spacing between intervals in the Major are always:
1 wholestep 2 wholestep 3 halfstep 4 wholestep 5 wholestep 6 wholestep 7 halfstep 1
(halfstep = 1 fret)(wholestep, skip a fret)

This is why notes, when spelling chords other than root, are irrelevant.
Defualt User ImageWorldDecay
12:57 am Monday
February 20, 2006
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So what's the next practical step i can take to start on CC?
User ImageBillyJack
8:13 am Monday
February 20, 2006
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Quote From Loyct:
So what's the next practical step i can take to start on CC?
I'm honestly not sure. I'd say work on chord spelling but at the same time, I think you need to study all 13 interval relationships on the guitar neck.

For some, this method of learning doesn't work as well as memorizings each chord in each key. I see spaces when I play chords and not notes so for me 1,3,5 is prefect. Basing on the way I learn, I'd say learn the chords by the numbers in every position you can. Not only as 1,3,5 but, also as full 6 string chord patterns. 5 strings & 4's as well. For example:
1,3,5 chord using a the bass "E" string as a root (or root 6 chord) you could play,

"G" Major (G,B,D)
1 - G 3rd fret
5 - D 5th fret
1 - G 5th fret
3 - B 4th fret
5 - D 3rd fret
1 - G 3rd fret

which is the most common basic Major bar chord pattern.

Slide the whole thing sharp 2 frets and you are in "A" Major. The notes change but, the intervals (thus fingering) does not.

"A" Major (A,C#,E)
1 - A 5th fret
5 - E 7th fret
1 - A 7th fret
3 - C# 6th fret
5 - E 5th fret
1 - A 5th fret

In the GKN Learning Center, under TOOLS, Mike has a section called "Individual Chord Fingerings". When you click on the word "Major" from the list, the formula for a Major chord shows up at the top of the page and a fret board with fingering positions pops up with dots noting the finger positions. The red dot represents the root. There are 6 patterns listed under "Major". See if you can indentify the intervals following the red dot (it's always 1). BTW, The example I listed for "G" & "A" (1,5,1,3,5,1) is this first pattern on the major. If you'll make me a list of the other 5 patterns, it'll tell me alot about rather the way I learned and the language I use to discribe things will help us communicate.

example:
pattern 1 = 1,5,1,3,5,1
pattern 2 = ?,?,?,?,?

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